Curse

Jetdoc · Aug 21, 2007, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

That FoW armour thing is cute, but totally irrelevant argument, because it gives no advantage to be concerned about.

That's the key that you fail to consider.

The OP is simply irked because someone else has something that is not materially different from what he has. And that person has it because of time spent in the game.

What is the difference between a 9 second Seed of Life and a 10 second Seed of Life?

1 second hardly has an impact on gameplay, but the OP is upset because someone else has that "thing" that he doesn't have. I find it ironic that he says that he doesn't mind having things that grinders have, but then focuses on a negligible difference as what is causing him "unhappiness".

By the way, I completely agree with the OP on the Kurzick/Luxon skills, but pointing out the impact to the SS skills isn't relevant, IMO.

Loviatar · Aug 21, 2007, 06:03 PM // 18:03

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

But before them, casuall player enjoyed being on part with hardoce as far as stats were concerned.

PvE skills changed that and Casuals can no longer enjoy leveled playing field.

at no time ever was a casual player on a par or a level playing field with a hardcore player

examples out of many

HARDCORE
SUP VIGOR/ABSORB
UAS
ALL ELITES
lots of playing practice

CASUAL
MAJOR/MINOR VIG AND MINOR ABSORB
FEW SKILLS
MAYBE AN ELITE OR TWO OR MAYBE NONE
not much playing practice or he wouldnt be casual any more

NO WAY ARE THOSE EVER GOING TO BE CLOSE AND THAT IS NOT EVEN COUNTING THE EXPERIENCE ADVANTAGE OF LONG PLAY

TabascoSauce · Aug 21, 2007, 06:29 PM // 18:29

I think the point that zwei2stein was trying to make, as well as the OP, was that the expansions have been increasing the list of advantages that grinders have over more casual players.

The list you make above, Loviatar,has 2 problems. It only encompasses things from prophecies, and therefore is missing all of the new advantages for grinders introduced by Factions and Nightfall, SS/Lux&Kurz Skills/LB/etc.

Now if this is the trend that ANet is choosing, then how much more grind will be involved with the new PvE skills in EotN?

Example - lets talk Kurz/Lux skills. 10 Million to max = psycho crazy grind. For warriors, there is a big difference in 3 seconds vs 6 seconds for +100 armor. Let me say that again, +100 armor. It is a shout, and has no induction time. With no energy cost, no recharge, it is merely based on 8 adrenaline. +100 armor for the whole party. I'd say that is not perma-+100 armor maxed out at 6 seconds, but it does not take that long to get 8 adrenaline.

That is an advantage, it is very dramatic, and it takes a heck of a lot of grind to get there. 10 million. Kinda rolls off of the tongue.

Was that the premise of the game originally? Uh, no. If you choose to take that attitude, then you are all alone, my friend.

And if I knew how to imbed the skill icon, for comedic purposes, then I would, but I dont. Anyone know how care to tell me?

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

margretli · Aug 22, 2007, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Some people, (including the OP) have said that the amount of grind that has been introduced so far is taking away the enjoyment for casual players. The enjoyment of hardcore players is often not taking into account.

I fall somewhere between a casual and hardcore player. I have a day job, I run a Tango event once a week, and I dance 3 out of 7 nights a week. I play GW when ever I have a chance to, usually on the weekends, and a few hours at night when I'm not dancing. I only have a limited amount of time to play computer games. With that said, I enjoy the new "perks" that comes with the new titles.

I don't like the idea of being forced to spend 5-6 days playing 8 hours a day just to get from point A to point B in a game. However, I ENJOY spending 2-3 hours just getting enough faction to baby sit the little turtles so I can get protectors. I ENJOY getting rewarded (PvE skills) for my efforts for killing things outside of town.

When talking about grind, I often wonder how much is too much? Just like skill balances, it is impossible to please everyone. The way I see it, Anet is doing a good job at keeping a bit of balance. I expect GW2 to be even more balanced in terms of enjoyment between casual and hardcore players.

I guess I'm a Casual Grinder if you must.

Engel the Fallen · Aug 22, 2007, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Point of OP is that his *enjoyment* of game is hurt by this kind of stuff. Looking ther other way and pretending that is not there solves nothing. It is easy suggestion to make, but it is flawed because if it worked for OP he wouldnt have made such post to begin with.

Sadly most people define their arguments about the game in well it is this way for me, so I do not care about you, or yea, looking the other way.

Odds are the new title will be as slow as LB to max, or slower. With direct ties to skills, odds are sooner or later to get into certain groups you will need a maxed title in one of the areas for a certain skill that is key to a build. Also odds are maxing these skills is what ANET plans to do while they work on GW 2 and abandon their failed first project.

One thing I noticed the other day is removed from the Guild Wars site is the talk about time vs skill. It is now all about time. Or in the case of PvP cash. They can either pay for skills, or grind for them. Still PvP is time based, as experience owns any inate skills a player has.

Andisa Kalorn · Aug 22, 2007, 01:23 AM // 01:23

I feel the same way as the OP, but I'll admit I'm not exactly a casual player. I have 10 characters with max SS, and two accounts r4 kurzick, and I've spent a fair amount of time farming and title hunting.

Grinding for the SS/LB and Kurzick skills was the only time I was actually bored playing the game. I hate it. I like to farm, quest, explore, and vanquish. I like to finish campaigns. So there is much I like to do. Now, suddenly, come these new skills linked to horribly boring titles.

Why is there this idea that because you're "hardcore" you automatically like boring grinds? And don't tell me a 6 second "save yourselves" wouldn't be helpful while vanquishing. So to help with the activity I like to do, I have to do an activity that's really boring? Why should I spend my free time being bored?

However, standing around Kamadan and watching the endless spam of so-and-so has achieved legendary spearmarshal/holy lightbringer, I'm starting to wonder if I'm in the minority and most people do, in fact, enjoy boring grinds.

I'm fine with there being grind. I'm fine with there being rewards for it. What's not fine is the rewards impact how powerful your skills are. And why can't the rewards just be something cosmetic? People have always strived for FoW armor even though it was just cosmetic.

I guess I'm mostly talking about the Kurzick/Luxon skills here, since SS skills are actually fairly easy to obtain (but STILL boring). I hope that the new PVE skills will be more like the SS skills, but I'm worried they'll be more like the factions ones. Or that there will be multiple titles to grind for skills.

As for the argument that casual players were never on an even playing field with hardcore players, remember that anet once took action to help remedy that - they made sup vigor and absorption drop much more frequently, causing their prices to drop dramatically. And elites can be obtained fairly easily by playing through the game, which casual players do too. So yeah things weren't equal but they weren't that unequal either.

Clone · Aug 22, 2007, 01:56 AM // 01:56

I've got to agree with the OP. Prophecies had it right, and they've been taking too many steps away from that. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Completing a quest or killing a boss once is an accomplishment. Killing the same boss or repeating the same quest a hundred times or doesn't make the individual task any more impressive. It just shows that someone goaded you into believing repetitive tasks should be more highly rewarded than facing multiple new challenges. Probably because it is a lot easier for lazy devs to put in repetitive tasks than to make new challenges.

Loviatar · Aug 22, 2007, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clone

It just shows that someone goaded you into believing repetitive tasks should be more highly rewarded than facing multiple new challenges. Probably because it is a lot easier for lazy devs to put in repetitive tasks than to make new challenges.

how many threads/posts have there been made on this site alone that were some varient of this?

Quote:

*I HAVE FINISHED/BEATEN GW X number of times and i am bored sick of the missions/quests. what can i do to keep playing GW?*

ABET responded by dreaming uo time killing titles to give them something to do until the next chapter.

the give me something to do came BEFORE the titles

they asked Anet gave

not lazy just that they cant crank out content as fast as people blast through it

some moron went 2 days straight to FINISH Factions just to find the best farming spots and any exploits before they could be fixed.

how can Anet keep up with that?

odly · Aug 22, 2007, 08:43 AM // 08:43

OP here.

Some people can clearly express my thoughts better than me. Some are right and some not though.

Yes it's not being on a level playing field that bothers me.

It used to be equal stats so player skill counted more. Skill > Time spend no longer.
I play 7 PVE characters because I believe that playing different proffessions in the end makes me a better player.
I feel that Anet is pushing me towards playing just one character instead of many. (Why did they sell me character slots then ?)
On the other hand playing just one would diminish my skill as a player.

I played different characters while others farmed for their FOW armour.
Everyone was happy.

Well maybe not, someone might have wanted FoW but had not time to farm for it either.

I don't know if I'm a casual player, but I'm not hardcore either. I was speaking in more general terms for the community of which I'm a member.

I play to many characters to be able to max out SS on all. I don't even have the time to do all possible quests on all. I just did the main track on most and that got me only up to level 3-4 SS for some of them.
So I accept not being able to get everything on all of them. It's my choice after all. But I do have a main character that does get a lot of playing time. And I do regret not being able to get his skills maxed without resorting to farming and boredom.

Some Statitisctics about my playing for reference.

All my characters bar one have fully unlocked their primary proffession including elites. (I've got full unlock)
All my characters bar one have protector tittles on their 'home continents'.
All my characters bar one have cheap max armour. One has 15k Kurzick. They have extra pieces so I can change runes at will.
(different character exceptions each time btw)

In past times they would all have been maxed out character, even though they looked dull.

My main character actually has legendary guardian and skill hunter titles. He killed Mallyx and has been arround for more than 2 years. He does not have maxed SS or LB though. (level max-1 atm.) He did all possible (side) quests in both Tyria and Cantha, working on Elona right now. But he does not get SS points for doing that anymore unless I do them in HM. Well, I do get the quest rewards, but that won't get me very far anymore.
This character I play through the game in order to enjoy the story fully and he does every quest I can find. So he does get arround. Still he won't get maxed skills in reward for it. I guess I could get closer to the tittle by vanquishing Elona.

Yes I preferred that the grinding bonus was just cosmetics. But thats actually selfish. It would have been better if there was some elite quest track to gain you the ability to craft FoW instead of farming the UW/FoW to gain the resources.

Should they go back ? I don't know. I could stop playing so many characters and just play one. In fact I plan allready to abandon 2 for the future.
Off course ANet is adding this because it's easier adding repeating rather than new content. And they need to keep the people busy till new stuff arrives. Some people just have to much time on their hands ;-).

My opinion for what would be best : have different alternatives.
If I could get mas SS just by completing the quests I would have no valid reason to complain. (I might still not like it, but hey if it's part of the game so be it.)

Maybe Anet should make the side quests more rewarding so you an alternative to farming in the quest rewards.

Sol Deathgard · Aug 22, 2007, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaq_gw

What if, the dungeons in GWEN require you to have high level PVE skills like the DOA or the torment regions do the SS skills?

Funny, most people beat DoA & the Torment regions long before the SS skills came out. Those that are telling you that you are an idiot if you don't bring them are the same people that will tell the SB monk in DoA to bring an uneeded skill like Serpents Quickness because the tank is too dumb to use his Obsidian Flesh after SB has worn off like his supposed to. In short, anyone that tells you that you have to have a certain skill at a certain level or you can't be in their group are horrid players that want others to carry them through the game.

Vamis Threen · Aug 22, 2007, 07:05 PM // 19:05

The Op's comments are based around the premise that GW is a game only for people who don't play it very often, and this is fundamentally flawed.

There has to be something in the game for regular gamers to keep them interested; to have a game aimed at people who don't play it very much is self-defeating; and as somebody else said earlier there is no level playing field- people who play more often are always going to have an advantage, at the very least in terms of skill.

R!ghteous Ind!gnation · Aug 22, 2007, 07:46 PM // 19:46

SS is obtainable through casual play, but still improved functionally.... Kurxick/Luxon not so much... ANYWAY the point the OP is making is that GW was advertised and sold as a game where its the SKILL of the player that sets them apart not how long they are willing to spend grinding a certain task. The game has gravitated slowly away from this as of late and I agree with the OP even though I have spent the time to max the titles.... I got into guild wars because I enjoyed the fact that within ~10 hours of gameplay the stats on my equipment could be functionally the same as those players who spend 40 hours a week playing the game. Ultimately I ended up playing a significant amount of time and getting FoW armor on four characters, tormented weapons on all characters, spiders on each character, and.... well you get the idea... Like I said I have maxed the SS and Kurzick titles on each character but the reward for the title should be the title itself... not improved functionality for skills. Just my 2 cents.

Nuclfus · Aug 22, 2007, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Wow. If the title skills were useable in PvP, I'd understand all this talk about a "level playing field". But guess what, they're not. That means in PvP, the skill advantage from grinding does nothing to unbalance the "equality" between casuals and hardcores you so enjoy. And as for noncompetitive PvE, the only way someone's higher-than-you LB or SS rank skill will affect your own game experience is if you party with them by your own choosing (i.e., your fault). Otherwise, you'll have to overcome your jealousy issues and quit worrying about how much of an easier time grinders get for all the time and patience they've put into their mindless title farming.

Of course, now you'll say I'm forgetting about title-based elitism in PUG groups. But if this is really the casual vs. grind conflict you claim it is, then there should be a whole group of other casual "low-title" players such as yourself having to deal with the same elitism from those snobby max-title grinders. So let the heavy grinders group with other fellow grinders (they'll waste so much time discriminating for other max title holders, so not your loss), and you can play with other people who "just want to enjoy the game". Everybody wins.

Now as for the done-to-death skill vs. time argument, let's think in dev terms. You want your game to reward "skilled" players in particular, yet be enjoyable for even the less than skilled (they paid good money too, you know). If the game is too easy then you'll bore some people, but if it's too hard then you'll frustrate others. How can you try and keep everyone happy? Voila, title skills.

Casual player? Got skill? Less grind for you (that's the "reward" you were promised). If not, here's your option B. PvE only too, which means in PvP where skill should count the most, it will.

R!ghteous Ind!gnation · Aug 22, 2007, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Its not the Elitism its the functionality... think of celestial skills... those were (im guessing) the OP's idea of PERFECT PVE SKILLS... way to strong for PvP but balanced to what you faced in PVE at that point.... read my previous post. plz.

odly · Aug 23, 2007, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vamis Threen

The Op's comments are based around the premise that GW is a game only for people who don't play it very often, and this is fundamentally flawed.

There has to be something in the game for regular gamers to keep them interested; to have a game aimed at people who don't play it very much is self-defeating; and as somebody else said earlier there is no level playing field- people who play more often are always going to have an advantage, at the very least in terms of skill.

There allways was something for the obsessive, but it was cosmetics only. (Which is very important though.)

Yes there was a level playing field. or at least it could be achieved for everyone if you wanted too. Max Kurzick/Luxon is not achievable for anyone but a few blessed people.

Skill > Time spend in the past.
Skill increases by playing different characters and understanding how they work.

Now though :

SS/Factions Skills increases with time spend.
SS skills decrease your skill by making you play one character a lot instead of learning how different characters work.

This will be my last post on this. If I haven't made myself clear so be it, and off course you have every right not to agree with me.

glountz · Aug 23, 2007, 09:34 AM // 09:34

OP's right.
But Anet' GW isa victim of its own success
No-fee-to-play, which was based upon the idea that a casual gamer skilled over the time he had would prefer to buy a game he could drop for some months if busy, attracted to the end the complete opposite kind of players.
Grinders and no-life have few to no money but on the contrary a lot of time (they are kids, students, home mothers, unemployed). Thus, they were attracted by a cheap but very well-made game.
Thus, GW's playerbase is now filled by this kind of no-life gamers. And they asked this grind. So Anet gave them (and what could they do? Its their customers).
Now, GW is less and less for the casual gamer. PvP imbalances screwed this part of the game, and PVE is more and more a matter of grind and less and less a matter of skill.
I am now searching for a pay-to-play game rewarding skill upon grind. Short missions and quests (no 2 hours DoA missions), but difficult and tricky ones.

stueyman2099 · Aug 23, 2007, 10:08 AM // 10:08

agree completely with the OP here. During Factions and Nightfall both I was disapointed by the fact that I was forced to grind faction/ss in order to move on. This completley contradicts skill over time spent, as I feel I had the skill to safely progress through the game past those area's with out any trouble at all (and didn't after repetitive grinding for those needed points). The game moves you on when aquired so much of a point... doesn't matter if you're a newbie or a pro, you still need the same grind.

Voltar · Aug 23, 2007, 12:54 PM // 12:54

I think where the original poster may be going with it is that Anet is starting to incorporate the rep grind more and more. It's really changing the game and makes it look like GW2 will be an all-grind game.

Problem: losing player base?
Solution: add more faction to mindlessly grind! Carrot-on-a-stick! Awesome!

The SS/LB doesn't bother me too much (at least the SS) since you can generally get the skills up to a reasonable level by playing the game (if you jump through the right hoops). The Kurzick/Luxon require an entirely unreasonable amount of faction (and actually I like playing AB). What bothers me is where this is heading.

If I wanted to play WoW, I would. It's by far a more elaborate game with substantially better quests. I hate Blizzard's carrot-on-a-stick-obligation-to-play tactics and therefor I refuse to ever reactive that account.

I would also like to point out that this ceases to be an issues of "casual vs hardcore". It's a matter of grinding taking over GW.

Redfeather1975 · Aug 23, 2007, 01:51 PM // 13:51

My reason for hating how PVE skills are handled is that the level at which you use them is permanently increased rather than increasing a cap in an attribute you have to use points in.
In GW:EotN I won't be surprised if people will eventaully not have to spend a single attribute point to make a powerful build. Then cookie cutter builds in PVE take on a whole super fun new turn.

efazzo · Aug 23, 2007, 02:37 PM // 14:37

The general direction the game seems to be heading is a bit disappointing with incorporating grind.
But i suppose it wont be that bad. The mini games could be fun, maybe you dont have to do that much to get the skills on low rank to begin with and maybe they dont scale that much with rank, probably you wont need a single PvE only skill to finish the regular campaign.
It is improbable that many PUGs will request high ranks. Most PUGs take everyone in.

If you need to have grind skills for the elite regions, meh... I guess you cant really complain as long as you can finish the regular campaign with regular playing. If some areas are "grinders only" we'll have to live with that. I can also live with the no-hench restriction in DoA although i would like to take them in...

Being competitive is irrelevant in PvE unless your understanding of the game is to outfarm other farmers but then you probably welcome the grind skills.

I dont like the grind either, but hey, the sky isnt falling and it wont destroy my gaming experience. It'll probably even make me happy when i get my first Norn skill (i wont farm for skills though).

The general direction is a bit troubling in regards to GW2 but for GWEN im not concerned.